Comments on: The failure of apologetics, the failure of example. http://blog.wisch.org/random-thoughts/the-failure-of-apologetics-the-failure-of-example/ benedictions, meditations, photography. Tue, 25 May 2010 03:13:45 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: shannon.warren http://blog.wisch.org/random-thoughts/the-failure-of-apologetics-the-failure-of-example/comment-page-1/#comment-2399 shannon.warren Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:55:45 +0000 http://blog.wisch.org/?p=1461#comment-2399 Hey Jeff, I agree with your assessment of New Apologetics. I would add that it is my experience when witnessing those who lose interest in the church it typically happens much more gradually than the proverbial "liberal professor". The typical pattern seems to be *leave home, *fall into some compromise (sex, drugs, alcohol, etc.), and THEN *decide that Sunday mornings are best spent in bed rather than at church where they themselves would be hypocrites. I have seen ministry minded persons go from "on fire" for God to doubting their faith in very few steps. Amazing the power of sin in our lives. I cannot recall the chapter number, but in the "Screwtape Letters" CS Lewis takes on this topic. The last thing the enemy wants for us to do is consider the truths of scripture against the call of the world. He would much rather we fade out of church and become apathetic toward God and truth than have to convince us to hate God. There is a temptation in me when I meet a Christian living in sin to accept both the sinner and the sin. I suppose I am tempted to show that person that I am open-minded. But we should encourage such people to stop destructive behavioral patterns and live in obedience to Christ. Further, I can see in my own life that those times when I have been most seduced by worldly doctrines (thoughts) have been those time I have been most seduced by worldly behavior (actions). Think of it this way, if a person is looking for an excuse to continue in a fun-but-destructive pattern, they will find that excuse. As you are aware, most debates over the existence of God or the "historical Jesus" generally end in a faith leap for both view points. That is, no one can win those arguments "QED". Rather, we follow the evidence we have and let it carry us to the point of faith. Faith is the last step, and if a person needs a reason to avoid faith then they are likely to find it. On the other hand, I can see your point that hypocrisy has driven many away from the church. Like you, I doubt that good apologetics are the solution for hypocrisy within the church. I believe the "solution" presented itself to me in Thailand 10 years ago during a trip to that country with the Aggies for Christ. I was convinced that the Thai people would just love the apologetics I was working so hard to study and communicate to them. I was surprised when I took survey of the Thai Christians, each and every one of them told me that the reason they became Christians was because they loved the family of Christ that they found in the local church. They hadn't been converted due to smart arguments but because they broke bread with the body of Christ and found people who loved each other. I'm certain that the body of Christ in Thailand is just as prone to hypocrisy as the body in America, but the Thai congregation I was working with had the answer to the God seeking heart: not perfect lives, but loving hearts who did strive to live rightly. Anyway, I can see that this topic has caused both of us to write more than we set out to write. I just wanted to chime in and share a few thoughts. Blessings to you brother. Hey Jeff, I agree with your assessment of New Apologetics. I would add that it is my experience when witnessing those who lose interest in the church it typically happens much more gradually than the proverbial “liberal professor”.

The typical pattern seems to be *leave home, *fall into some compromise (sex, drugs, alcohol, etc.), and THEN *decide that Sunday mornings are best spent in bed rather than at church where they themselves would be hypocrites. I have seen ministry minded persons go from “on fire” for God to doubting their faith in very few steps.

Amazing the power of sin in our lives.

I cannot recall the chapter number, but in the “Screwtape Letters” CS Lewis takes on this topic. The last thing the enemy wants for us to do is consider the truths of scripture against the call of the world. He would much rather we fade out of church and become apathetic toward God and truth than have to convince us to hate God.

There is a temptation in me when I meet a Christian living in sin to accept both the sinner and the sin. I suppose I am tempted to show that person that I am open-minded. But we should encourage such people to stop destructive behavioral patterns and live in obedience to Christ.

Further, I can see in my own life that those times when I have been most seduced by worldly doctrines (thoughts) have been those time I have been most seduced by worldly behavior (actions).

Think of it this way, if a person is looking for an excuse to continue in a fun-but-destructive pattern, they will find that excuse.

As you are aware, most debates over the existence of God or the “historical Jesus” generally end in a faith leap for both view points. That is, no one can win those arguments “QED”. Rather, we follow the evidence we have and let it carry us to the point of faith. Faith is the last step, and if a person needs a reason to avoid faith then they are likely to find it.

On the other hand, I can see your point that hypocrisy has driven many away from the church. Like you, I doubt that good apologetics are the solution for hypocrisy within the church. I believe the “solution” presented itself to me in Thailand 10 years ago during a trip to that country with the Aggies for Christ.

I was convinced that the Thai people would just love the apologetics I was working so hard to study and communicate to them. I was surprised when I took survey of the Thai Christians, each and every one of them told me that the reason they became Christians was because they loved the family of Christ that they found in the local church. They hadn’t been converted due to smart arguments but because they broke bread with the body of Christ and found people who loved each other.

I’m certain that the body of Christ in Thailand is just as prone to hypocrisy as the body in America, but the Thai congregation I was working with had the answer to the God seeking heart: not perfect lives, but loving hearts who did strive to live rightly.

Anyway, I can see that this topic has caused both of us to write more than we set out to write. I just wanted to chime in and share a few thoughts. Blessings to you brother.

]]> By: bperkins http://blog.wisch.org/random-thoughts/the-failure-of-apologetics-the-failure-of-example/comment-page-1/#comment-2398 bperkins Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:11:05 +0000 http://blog.wisch.org/?p=1461#comment-2398 In other words.... During college, kids leave the church because most church-goers are hypocrits, not because of liberal diatribes by their professors and the lack of information about Christianity. End of story. If that's correct, then I would agree. I would add that this phenomenon is not limited to 18-22 year old people, but probably extending into people in the 25-40 crowd who managed to survive college and then enter the "real world" after graduation. In other words….

During college, kids leave the church because most church-goers are hypocrits, not because of liberal diatribes by their professors and the lack of information about Christianity. End of story.

If that’s correct, then I would agree. I would add that this phenomenon is not limited to 18-22 year old people, but probably extending into people in the 25-40 crowd who managed to survive college and then enter the “real world” after graduation.

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